The status, which was 'Israel sucks,' was in response to the Israeli government not allowing Palestinian protesters to board a plane, en masse, to Tel Aviv in order to demonstrate against Israel's barbaric treatment of their people in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
I will not be disclosing any personal information on those involved in the debate.
Pro-Israelite: God you are soo misinformed... just saying.
Me: Haha, trust me, I'm informed. :P I've done looots of research. And I see the Israeli side of the argument as well.. they're afraid that if the Palestinian's had any sort of basic human rights, and were allowed to return to their homes in Israel proper, there would be a much greater amount of Palestinians than Israeli's, causing the Israeli's to become a minority in their own country. As for voting rights, if the Palestinian's were allowed to do that, Israel would probably be voted out of existence.
The thing is.. all of the above DOESN'T make robbing people of their homes, country, and basic human rights excusable, especially considering the Israeli's claimed they had a right to Palestine based on some claim from the Biblical era. If we're talking about who has a rightful claim over what, then Italy has a rightful claim over most of Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East as part of the Roman Empire.
Pro-Israelite: oh? So basically your saying that slitting the throats of babies and killing children and bombing public places are okay with you? you think you know everything Kyran, but you only know what you want to know and what fits in with what you believe in the first place. In fact, maybe you should do some research on "Palestine" and "Palestinians" seeing as neither of them actually exist in the form they're being presented.
Me: Yes :P that's exactly what I'm saying. Obviously, that's not what I'm saying at all.
Okay, look.. you're calling ME misinformed? The Palestinians and Israelis have been committing atrocities against one another for decades. It's not just the Palestinian's treating the Israelis terribly- as well, it's not ALL the Palestinian's partaking in such brutal acts. That would be like me blaming all the Jews in Israel for what the fundamentalist Zionists did when they started violently invading towns in the West Bank, and walking into Mosques to kill the Palestinian's praying within them. And yes, that happened.
You are generalizing the Palestinian's on the basis of groups like Hamas.
Look, trust me. I of all people look at all sides of the story- I got a lecture on it in History class, quite a few days in a row.. I read CBC, CNN, the Globe and Mail, all of which I know has a similar bias.. so I check out the Israeli news sources, like Haaretz, Arutz Shiva, and B'Tselem.. then I check out news sources that are totally under the radar, and uninvolved in any side, like the Real News Network and independent news sources from Tumblr and Blogspot.
And look at all the LAND the Arab nations have? :P Are you really that ignorant of the Palestinian side of the coin?
Although Palestinian's may be Arab in the loosest sense of the word, it doesn't mean they're NOT Palestinian, and it doesn't mean all Arabs are the same. Iraqis are Iraqis, Jordanians are Jordanians, Saudi Arabians are Saudi Arabians, and Syrians are Syrians. It's not like you could take away their country and make the argument; 'Look, you're Arab! It shouldn't MATTER that we took your country, just go live in another Arab country, you idiot. There are plenty of them!'
And I see both sides of the argument, lol. It's not like the Palestinian's are saints, either. They've done absolutely terrible things to people- or their extremists have, however.
The thing is, if you look back in the records to even prior to the Second World War, the Palestinian's had been settled in the area for close to 2000 years. And then following the First World War, there was a major influx of Jewish immigration into their land. At first, no one hated anyone else. They were worried, but not alarmed as of yet. They were still very much the majority, and at the time, the Jewish population wasn't doing anything wrong.
With the further rise of Zionism, and the increased influx of Jewish immigrants in the Interwar years, when the area was under British control, the Palestinian's began to become concerned- especially when Zionist extremists began attacking Palestinian settlements.
This led to the Palestinian's getting revenge, and as such, the Zionists getting revenge for what the Palestinian's did in order to get revenge- and basically, it's been going back and forth, getting worse and worse, and greater in scale of atrocities on both sides since then. It was so bad, the British had to intervene using armed force, and put a cap on Jewish immigration into the area to cease further violence.
Following World War II and the increased sympathy for the Jewish people after the Holocaust, the United Nations partitioned the country in two between Israel and Palestine. Eventually, the Israelites found pretext to capture most of the rest of the area (save for the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) after a series of Arab nations threatened invasion.
They never returned even half of the Palestinian land to the Palestinian people.
Although Palestinian's may be Arab in the loosest sense of the word, it doesn't mean they're NOT Palestinian, and it doesn't mean all Arabs are the same. Iraqis are Iraqis, Jordanians are Jordanians, Saudi Arabians are Saudi Arabians, and Syrians are Syrians. It's not like you could take away their country and make the argument; 'Look, you're Arab! It shouldn't MATTER that we took your country, just go live in another Arab country, you idiot. There are plenty of them!'
And I see both sides of the argument, lol. It's not like the Palestinian's are saints, either. They've done absolutely terrible things to people- or their extremists have, however.
The thing is, if you look back in the records to even prior to the Second World War, the Palestinian's had been settled in the area for close to 2000 years. And then following the First World War, there was a major influx of Jewish immigration into their land. At first, no one hated anyone else. They were worried, but not alarmed as of yet. They were still very much the majority, and at the time, the Jewish population wasn't doing anything wrong.
With the further rise of Zionism, and the increased influx of Jewish immigrants in the Interwar years, when the area was under British control, the Palestinian's began to become concerned- especially when Zionist extremists began attacking Palestinian settlements.
This led to the Palestinian's getting revenge, and as such, the Zionists getting revenge for what the Palestinian's did in order to get revenge- and basically, it's been going back and forth, getting worse and worse, and greater in scale of atrocities on both sides since then. It was so bad, the British had to intervene using armed force, and put a cap on Jewish immigration into the area to cease further violence.
Following World War II and the increased sympathy for the Jewish people after the Holocaust, the United Nations partitioned the country in two between Israel and Palestine. Eventually, the Israelites found pretext to capture most of the rest of the area (save for the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) after a series of Arab nations threatened invasion.
They never returned even half of the Palestinian land to the Palestinian people.
Pro-Israelite: already know, there WAS no Palestine at that time. The country was actually partitioned between Jordan and Israel. "Palestine" HAS no history. It is simply a geographical region. Just like people living in British Columbia are British Columbians...It's the same thing. Jews have been "Palestinians" because they lived in that geographical region. Another thing you need to know is that Isrealites NEVER drove "Palestinians" out of their home. The Arab leadership encouraged the Arab people to flee their homes and then they would destroy Israel and bring the Arab's back to take of the spoils. But Israelites were already living there at that time. The Israeli leadership told the Arab's to stay! and about 160, 000 or so, DID. Those 160, 000 Arabs lived BETTER in Israel then many of the Arabs living anywhere else. You seem to have spent an incredible amount of time on this subject, but no amount of time you HAVE spent in your life could amount to people four times your age. I would like to suggest two books for you to find and read - "Philistine - The Great Deception" by Ramon Bennett, and "From Time Immemorial - The Origins of the Arab-Jewish conflict over Palestine" by Joan Peters. You seem to think you have all the information you need but I am seeing many misrepresentations being brought forth by your arguments. Another thing I will say is that if you trace back to Yasser Arafat (who was actually an Egyptian) he was related to the Mufti of Jerusalem who in turn was an ally of the Nazi movement. Again, There were no Palestinian people until 1967. Can you identify a Palestinian leader from before 1967 and Yasser Arafat? And Why would they name their country to begin with the letter "P" which they cannot pronounce and does not even exist in their alphabet?
Me: Dude, I'm sorry, but if this is information from your dad.. I really don't think it's valid. He wrote a book blaming homosexuals for Nazism and ultraviolence, which is absolute bullshit.
Also, it was 'Palestine,' trust me. In 1939, at the outbreak of the Second World War, the Jewish population was a little over 11 percent of the regions ENTIRE population. How the hell does an incredible minority like that have a right to that land?Pro-Israelite: That is not true. He co-authored a book exposing Nazis as the homosexuals they were. Do the research. and no, you didn't answer my questions... Give me the Palestinian leader from before Yasser Arafat.
Have you even read his book?
Me: Look, he co-wrote it with Scott Lively, the guy who is now is Uganda supporting the passing of the anti-gay bill into Ugandan law, which will make homosexuality a criminal offence punishable by death.
Reading that book would be like reading Mein Kampf.. I'm sure there's an argument supporting what Hitler thought and felt, and I'm sure it could be backed-up by facts twisted to work in his favor, but it doesn't make it right or true.Also, they had local leaders centralized by the British prior, and the Ottomans before that.. as well as the Egyptians for a short time.
They did indeed see themselves as Palestinian, but since they were a part of different empires which provided security, it was a regional identity, and not a national one.
It became a national identity when they began to be pressed into a corner by the Jewish immigrants. You don't need to have some strong and obvious leader to be a certain kind of person. The Palestinian's didn't revolt against the British because it was actually in THEIR interests to have the British stay, considering the British were the ones keeping the newly-arrived Zionists from creating a state in the region that had been theirs for the past 2000 years. It was the Zionists that revolted against the British.
They did indeed see themselves as Palestinian, but since they were a part of different empires which provided security, it was a regional identity, and not a national one.
It became a national identity when they began to be pressed into a corner by the Jewish immigrants. You don't need to have some strong and obvious leader to be a certain kind of person. The Palestinian's didn't revolt against the British because it was actually in THEIR interests to have the British stay, considering the British were the ones keeping the newly-arrived Zionists from creating a state in the region that had been theirs for the past 2000 years. It was the Zionists that revolted against the British.
It's not about national identity so much as it's about the homes that were taken from the Palestinian people permanently. They continue to have no rights under Israeli law, and that's the issue.. not the technicalities relating to its history.
Pro-Israelite: I find it interesting that you continue to avoid my questions.
Me: Lol, I'm 100% sure they would say it differently in Arabic, just in the same way that in English, Germany is called Germany.. but in German, it's called Deutschland. The national identity is still very much there. You're reducing your argument to the pronunciation of the country's name.. not the actual country itself.
To quote you, "You seem to think you have all the information you need but I am seeing many misrepresentations being brought forth by your arguments" applies very much to yourself as well.And Yasser Arafat being related to the Mufti of Jerusalem does not make Arafat implicit in the Mufti's beliefs or allies, so I'm not sure where you're going with that, because that's blatantly irrelevant.
But yes, the Mufti WAS allied with the Nazi cause out of a hate for the invading Jews who were taking his homeland. He wanted Rommel and his Afrika Corps to break through British lines at the Suez Canal and invade Palestine in order to rid it of the Jews. I don't think the Mufti was right in how extreme his solution to the problem was, and I certainly do not agree with Nazism, but the Mufti was reflecting popular opinion regarding the influx of these Zionist foreigners who wanted to take away their country, home, and identity, and who had been violently attacking Palestinian Arabs since the end of World War I. The Palestinian's, in turn, were just as barbaric and violent.
Pro-Israelite: You are so incredibly biased. Read those books, Kyran.
Me: Haha, you're so incredibly biased, Miriam. Most rational human beings are somewhat biased, but you would be much more so, considering you have a background in all of this.
Pro-Israelite: Haha yeah well Kyran you're pro-gay, pro-nazi and pro-palestinian. Not saying there's anything wrong with gays.. The problem is that Kyran is using Red herrings and ad hominem attacks. But kyran, we've always been able to accept our differences right? :) Until next time, adios.
Me: Lol, the reason I'm using 'ad hominem' attacks, as you call them, is because that is where you GET your views, from your fathers influence- it's blatantly obvious. And trust me, I am NOT pro-Nazi. I am, however, pro-Palestinian, and pro-gay. I am also pro-Jewish, and I don't NOT endorse the destruction of Israel as a state. The Jews, I think, deserved, and still deserve a homeland.
However, they have abused their position beyond belief, and destroyed their credibility as a decent nation. What SHOULD have happened was that half of the country should have gone (and remained) with the Palestinians, whilst the other half remained with the Jews. Instead, the Israelites selfishly took the entire area and indulged in their irrational paranoia regarding a potential Palestinian takeover, thus causing it to come true in theory due to their disgusting human rights abuses against the disarmed and now dissident Palestinian population.
Pro-Israelite: Well Kyran, if you must know, you're wrong. I do not get all of my views or information from my father. In fact, he ENCOURAGES me to do my own research and believe that which I think is right. And I am perfectly capable of forming my own opinions, you have no right to think otherwise or assume that I run to daddy every time I need to know something. Not to mention that I don't agree with everything he says either. Also, you seem to think that the Israelite people themselves are completely to blame for this. Look at the leaders. Are they the kind of leaders you would want for your own country? They don't have the best interests of anyone but themselves at heart and they project that onto the people they are leading. I'm not saying that Jews are saints either. There are many different types of Jews and many of them are not admirable nor do they represent the true meaning of being Jewish. It's true, however, I have more to learn and discover about the PLO and The Arab-Jewish Conflict and I guarantee I will be searching out the truth best I can. This debate won't be my last, but I appreciate the chance to exercise my knowledge.
Me: I do appreciate your last comment- makes for a good wrap-up to this whole deal.
Pro-Israelite: Agreed :)
But yes, the Mufti WAS allied with the Nazi cause out of a hate for the invading Jews who were taking his homeland. He wanted Rommel and his Afrika Corps to break through British lines at the Suez Canal and invade Palestine in order to rid it of the Jews. I don't think the Mufti was right in how extreme his solution to the problem was, and I certainly do not agree with Nazism, but the Mufti was reflecting popular opinion regarding the influx of these Zionist foreigners who wanted to take away their country, home, and identity, and who had been violently attacking Palestinian Arabs since the end of World War I. The Palestinian's, in turn, were just as barbaric and violent.
Pro-Israelite: You are so incredibly biased. Read those books, Kyran.
Me: Haha, you're so incredibly biased, Miriam. Most rational human beings are somewhat biased, but you would be much more so, considering you have a background in all of this.
Pro-Israelite: Haha yeah well Kyran you're pro-gay, pro-nazi and pro-palestinian. Not saying there's anything wrong with gays.. The problem is that Kyran is using Red herrings and ad hominem attacks. But kyran, we've always been able to accept our differences right? :) Until next time, adios.
Me: Lol, the reason I'm using 'ad hominem' attacks, as you call them, is because that is where you GET your views, from your fathers influence- it's blatantly obvious. And trust me, I am NOT pro-Nazi. I am, however, pro-Palestinian, and pro-gay. I am also pro-Jewish, and I don't NOT endorse the destruction of Israel as a state. The Jews, I think, deserved, and still deserve a homeland.
However, they have abused their position beyond belief, and destroyed their credibility as a decent nation. What SHOULD have happened was that half of the country should have gone (and remained) with the Palestinians, whilst the other half remained with the Jews. Instead, the Israelites selfishly took the entire area and indulged in their irrational paranoia regarding a potential Palestinian takeover, thus causing it to come true in theory due to their disgusting human rights abuses against the disarmed and now dissident Palestinian population.
Pro-Israelite: Well Kyran, if you must know, you're wrong. I do not get all of my views or information from my father. In fact, he ENCOURAGES me to do my own research and believe that which I think is right. And I am perfectly capable of forming my own opinions, you have no right to think otherwise or assume that I run to daddy every time I need to know something. Not to mention that I don't agree with everything he says either. Also, you seem to think that the Israelite people themselves are completely to blame for this. Look at the leaders. Are they the kind of leaders you would want for your own country? They don't have the best interests of anyone but themselves at heart and they project that onto the people they are leading. I'm not saying that Jews are saints either. There are many different types of Jews and many of them are not admirable nor do they represent the true meaning of being Jewish. It's true, however, I have more to learn and discover about the PLO and The Arab-Jewish Conflict and I guarantee I will be searching out the truth best I can. This debate won't be my last, but I appreciate the chance to exercise my knowledge.
Me: I do appreciate your last comment- makes for a good wrap-up to this whole deal.
Pro-Israelite: Agreed :)
Me:
Pro-Israelite:
Pro-Israelite: That's funny, I don't remember saying anything of the sort. This video was simply something I found interesting. And okay seriously, you can stop attacking me, it's only showing that you're aiming to beat me in this argument instead of finding out the truth. Also,you have STILL failed to answer my previous question. But I'm sick of talking about this, I'm sure we'll talk again, but at the moment I'm reading about the Arab-Jewish/Palestinian-Is
Me: Haha, okay, maybe I was quick to jump to the gun there. I assumed you sent it in response to my video. Regardless of your motives or the way you see it, whoever that Australian dude is, he's an uber-stereotyping ultra-Conservative.
This post will be added to if and when there is more material available.
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